Its probably in between Vanadis 8 and 10V. Type 8Cr, the more common formulation, is worse than AUS-8: a little more prone to corrosion and not quite as hard. The solid lockup and decent blade design make these two knives well suited for camping. Toughness is the resistance to chipping or breaking. As from features, for presenting d2 continue to grow in the knife industry, generally because of their working performance and reasonable price, a lot of superior low budget knives are building their reputation. And steels with at least 10% chromium are probably stainless, except for several important exceptions like D2 and ZDP-189. Marco, BSc Chem. Using 10 dps sharpening (20 degrees inclusive on the chart) leads to about 5x the edge retention of 25 dps. third and most important is what happened to the burr. Rex 45 CPM-S90V, CPM-S110V, CPM-10V, and Bohler K390 each fit in this category. -> Maybe prequenched 14c28n could be a little tougher than AEB-L? There has been some internet controversy over the grinding and heat treat of this steel. It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. Its tough, but thats about it. Deburring of edges often takes even longer than removing material to produce the edge. The steel was developed to be free from chromium carbides which gives it properties similar to balanced non-stainless tool steels like CPM-4V and CPM-CruWear. 14C28N steel is the improved version of 13C26 with better rust resistance. there seems to be an optimal procedure for every alloy (provided its heat treated to industial standards). While not a powder steel, 154CM is widely used in nicer knives. I wrote an article about knife steel ratings available online in 2018, where I concluded that none of them were very good. I like it. Also known as Z-Finit, Zapp produces this steel in America. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Steels without these attributes are much less costly. That old pine in particular is some crazy hard stuff. This does not predict which knife will cut longer or be more resistant to chipping. But in my experience, it has been nothing but great. The steel loses some of the chromium in solution for corrosion resistance to form these fine carbides for hardness. Three main characteristics differentiate steels from one another: corrosion resistance, hardness, and toughness. Read about my tests in this article. 14C28N knives are easier to sharpen than D2 knives. We and our partners use cookies to Store and/or access information on a device. D2 knives, on the other hand, are challenging to sharpen. The 25 dps sharpened knife saw almost no edge damage with 2 ft-lbs while a 15 dps edge saw a significant chip with only 0.3 ft-lbs and catastrophic chipping with 1.4 ft-lbs. Though technically not a stainless steel at least 14% chromium, and D2 usually has 12% it's relatively corrosion-resistant. If you are a newbie to steel knives and the differences are not yet clear, come with us to the next section as we look into each knifes characteristics, pros, and cons. Below shows Vanax tempered at 400F on the left and 1000F on the right after 1% saltwater for 24 hours: There are many other ways in which knife steel performance can be reduced through heat treatment but I cant cover them all in this article so hopefully these illustrative examples will be enough. The stainless steel rating. I wont go into detail about those here. AEB-L is rarely found on production knives but can be found on custom knives easily. This is a virtually stain-proof steel suitable for all sorts of aquatic environments. However, there are other factors. what does a cvn of 40 v.s 20 mean? There is one exception: Bucks 420HC (Buck and onlyBuck) is produced using a proprietary heat treatment. 14C28N is essentially AEB-L (or perhaps more accurately Sandvik 13C26), but with improved corrosion resistance. Only a skilled blacksmith can make Damascus steels, so they tend to be expensive. Vanadium carbides are among the hardest that form in steel, and chromium carbides are in between iron carbide and vanadium carbide. Still looking forward to magnacut making it into high volume production and use. No mainstream companies use SM100, and the niche makers that do usually charge more than $1,000 for knives with SM100 blades. This is a very important factor when selecting a steel for your knife blade, especially if you plan on spending a lot of time outdoors in an area with high humidity.. S30v is a higher ranked steel and considered a true Stainless Steel, with a 14% . Combination of knife steel properties. On the spreadsheet, youve grouped AUS-8 and 8Cr13MoV. 1095. 14C28N vs. D2. Steel with high wear resistance is more costly to manufacture, as the knife company goes through more abrasives to grind the knives. This is a midprice steel with matching performance. Socould you please clarify which steel is the outlier and which is the line>. Take a look at this edge retention test. In some previous articles I have shown the balance between my toughness and edge retention measurements such as in the following chart, where the high alloy non-stainless are in orange and the blue are stainless: However, one issue with these charts are that difference in toughness is that a linear scale for toughness is a bit misleading for visualizing practical toughness differences. After the steel is quenched it is reheated to a lower temperature to increase toughness and decrease hardness. Toughness 3, Edge Ret 8, Cor Res 4? I also have meat cleaver 1,4116 ,58RC that I order and was looking up if its a good steel or did waist money and need to return it. Uddeholm lists it as somewhat worse in toughness than A2 but somewhat better in wear resistance. Its used for combat knives, bushcrafting knives, and other applications where having a supertough blade trumps the need for edge retention and corrosion resistance. While some are into that type of thing, if youre familiar with a specific steel and want to compare it with another, you should definitely click on that button below. Is 440A really that much better than 420HC, or have you found a narrower gap? These steels offer a great balance of characteristics that work well, from big choppers to thin slicers. Like 154CM, its a good compromise between all three steel attributes. Both knives were chopped through a nail. So for most steels they are given a rating at around 59-62 Rc, apart from a few steels that are never used at that hardness. However, Kershaw asked Sandvik to make their 13C26 steel more resistant to corrosion, and the result was 14C28N. We and our partners use data for Personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. The steel is an air-hardness tool steel that is considered semi-stainless because of its high chromium content. When describing the characteristics of a steel, a few common attributes are commonly talked about. However, it can be somewhat complicated because an edge can dull from many causes wear, micro-chipping, deformation, or corrosion. My other knives are a Real Steel E77 8cr14mov. Read more. Steels that are improperly heat treated have excess retained austenite which makes them extremely difficult to deburr. 14C28N and D2 steel are not the same. There is buzz out there but I havent seen anything solid yet in the world of steel. Rex 121 23.5% vanadium carbide, 4% molybdenum/tungsten carbide (M6C), Conventional Ingot vs Powder Metallurgy Carbide Structure. This list is not exhaustive, so check out some of our rating tables for more information on whatever steel youre interested in. Privacy Policy. This is also a powder-metal steel produced by American steel company Crucible. 14C28N and D2 knives are affordable high-end knives. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/17/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-3/. W-2 Knife Steel Benefiting from 0.2 percent vanadium content, W-2 holds an edge well and is reasonably tough. It was your original article on ratings that brought me to knifesteel nerds so its great to see your results put back into a form that will no doubt be distributed \ plagiarized widely, hopefully leading to more rational thought and better understanding by the knife consuming public (not that the misleading marketing will go away). does 1.4116 deserve the title of title of ultimate trash steel? The 8Cr13MoV vs D2 debate. It does have chromium but is not as sufficient as required to be a type of stainless steel. I made most of my leather knives from O1v (O1 with .20V) that I hold at 1475 for 15 mins and quench in 120-130 F AAA oil and Kevin Cashen is where those parameters came from btw. The main downside is the steel is more difficult to heat treat and cant go harder than about 60 or perhaps 61 Rc. CPM154 is a truly superior steel. Poor availability may effectively increase cost of steel. Therefore I will be showing the ratings of the steels graphically in terms of toughness-edge retention balance, where steels that are high and to the right have the best combination, and you choose the steel based on the level of toughness or edge retention necessary for the knife. Its hard enough, tough enough, and stain-resistant enough. The most significant cost increase comes from powder metallurgy, used to create most of the expensive knife steels. Also how did you arrive at the edge retention & toughness numbers for 8cr13mov and for BD1N toughness? Any thoughts how Sleipner might fare in the ratings? Heat treatment and edge geometry can mean more for knife performance than the specific steel used in the knife. Distilled water can separate steels that are stainless vs those that are not. 14C28N knife will dull faster, but it is easy to sharpen. Instead, Vargo titanium uses a unique material called sintered titanium-ceramic alloy. Its exceedingly tough and relatively hard, but its not stainless. If you purchase this types of knife, without any hassle you can easily re-sharpening. I was thinking maybe Sleipner or A2 would be best if a PM steel was out. Let's compare 14c28n steel with other steels, and for this, I use four criteria; Edge Retention, Corrosion resistance, Ease of Sharpness, and Toughness and on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the highest) let's see the performance of each steel. Im not hating on 80crv2 , Ive used it. Actually, Id be thinking 14C28N, but I want to leave stainless out. By that I dont mean that a better heat treatment is not possible, but that major mistakes in heat treating are avoided. Honestly, yes, because its perfect steel for your knife, besides it depends on which knife, so when youre talking about chef knives, then 14c28n would be an ideal pick thanks to professional corrosion resistance and edge retention. We have our views as well, and here they are! Obviously Ill let you check the manuscript prior to publication. More expensive powder metallurgy steels in this category include M390, CPM-S35VN, Elmax, CTS-XHP, CPM-S30V, and CPM-154. D2 is a high carbon, high chromium die steel and is the highest carbon alloy tool and die steel typically used in knife making. On the other hand, edge stability in terms of micro chipping and edge folding is also good. On the other hand, these types of steel provide high wear resistance and toughness. Choose a factor below to start sorting. Liquid steel is sprayed through a tiny nozzle, solidifying into a powder. 14C28N is a type of high-performance stainless steel used in knife-making. However, to choose the best knife for you must consider all the properties, including toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. The brand Bark River uses A2 in many models. Thanks to Bill Smutz, Alex Topfer, Florian Bachler, Brunhard, Art, Rod H, Sach, Jinny Koh, Jon Duda, Cory Henderson, and UPKnife for becoming Knife Steeel Nerds Patreon supporters! Note just because a blade is made from the premium or high-end steels listed above does not automatically mean its better than the lesser steels. The pictures below show the microstructures of the three classes of stainless steel on the market. A good quality knife must have sharpness, great edge retention, and a sturdy handle. Notice that with the same edges on the same media, the 9Cr18Mov from Real Steel performs about as well as the average Chinese D2. I just want to thank you for all the work you do for the community and the world at large. great work, larrin. If youre looking for all all-around best knife steel, youd be hard-pressed to find one better than Bohler Uddeholm M390. Compared to the AUS10A, the D2 has a longer legacy since it's been around since 1918. Knife steel nerds have a great write up on 14c28n nik_was 2 yr. ago Note:Dont bother with anything less than 8Cr in this series. Jesse Jarosz, a custom maker from Montana, regularly uses AEB-L. Its very similar chemically to RWL 34 and ATS-34. Hello everyone I've been loking into twosun knives recently. For example, see the chart below for how much edge retention can change with edge geometry for a single steel (in this case 154CM and CPM-154). Hi Larrin Your estimate of 420HCs corrosion resistance is different here than in your October, 2019 post on corrosion resistance testing: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/10/14/corrosion-resistance-testing/ Also many hardwoods will dull planer blades just because theyre more dense. A more obtuse edge angle is much more resistant to chipping than an acute edge. This is an American-made powder steel. The following are less common steels, but theyre definitely worth tracking down. One argument I see consistently leveled against 8Cr13MoV compared to AUS-8 is that of the consistency of the composition. I see tables that compare Toughness,Edge Retention,Corrosion Resistance. An example of data being processed may be a unique identifier stored in a cookie. I've heard d2 is miles better and i dont want to pay 90 for the p135 and get a significantly inferior blade to paying 110 for the D2 Rat. Some steel companies charge more than others. 1) the cvn number is just that, a number. Why wouldnt it be possible to make a damascus steel out of (say) AEB-L and s90V, or wouldnt that gain the best of both? 420HC doesnt hold an edge well, but its relatively stain-resistant and tough. Now that we know what each factor represents, we can see how the steels rank against one another. 14C28N knives offer better toughness than D2 knives. . Maxamets hardness results in incredible edge retention and a nightmarish sharpening and machining experience. If you look at the chart you may notice that at high toughness levels if you increase edge retention by only a relatively small amount you get very big drops in toughness. There seem to be a lot of modern steels that get related to D2, but OTOH just saying a steel is similar to D2 seems to kill interest in it. I believe they are made of simple carbon steel. Vanadium carbides are very large with conventional production of steels but are very small with powder metallurgy. On the other hand the professional performing blade steels sharpen to a razor edge and hold the edge for an extended use. 7:00am-5:00pm, 10am-7pm Tuesday - Friday document.getElementById( "ak_js" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. FRN Not every element is shown in the charts. Its hard to say. I test corrosion resistance of steels by heat treating 1 x 1.5 inch coupons, finishing to about 400 grit, and then spraying with water. In general, steels look worse as you go up in hardness because the toughness is reduced by more than the edge retention is increased. Its found on a large number of traditional-style folders. I would like to see the rating and performance on test of the Chinese Steels, that some people use to say its cheap garbage, like 3Cr13MoV, 4Cr13, 4Cr13Mo, 4Cr14MoV, 5Cr15MoV, 6Cr13MoV, 7Cr17MoV, 8Cr13MoV, 9Cr13MoVCo, 9Cr18MoV, 9Cr19MoV, and the 14cr14MovNB to see if they are similar, worse or better than the steels that they copyi believe we gonna have some good unexpected results. are after the ratings. It shows 3 stainless steels from 750-800tcc but the edge retention graph only has 1 SS in that range, S90v. SUS410 Did you change the estimate based on more testing? D2 is another medium-range tool steel. For example, increasing edge retention from Z-Tuff to 3V (100 mm in the CATRA test) led to a drop in over 10 ft-lbs, a similar drop is seen by going from 3V to CPM-CruWear. Used in knives since at least World War II, 1095 performance varies considerably with an abundance of tweaks in the recipe and heat treat. I see very little about cryo outside of journal articles, and I wonder which knifemakers use it. But the true calling card of INFI is its insane toughness. Thank you for the accurate data. It should get an ultra-sharp edge for easy cutting, hold the edge for long for easy maintenance, and have a sturdy and ergonomic handle for comfort and to prevent accidents. If you are a newbie, sharpening D2 knives will be a struggle, but it is doable with practice and the right sharpening tools. On the other hand, in d2 air-hardness steel, you cant differentially temper the blade-like other high carbon steel because the steel can also be challenging to sharpen. One of the more common stainless steels, and one readily available in lots of different places worldwide, AUS-8 is a decent all-around steel. In real life, would you expect any presumed increase in deviation from the specified formula, as well as the effects of said deviation, to negatively impact the performance of 8Cr13MoV to any truly noticeable degree? This is an American-made powder steel produced by Crucible and developed specifically for knives with the aid of the knife guru Chris Reeve (maker of the vaunted Sebenza, among other gems). In that case the difficulty in sharpening would be the inverse of the edge retention rating. Being stainless is not an on or off property, and some stainless steels are more resistant to corrosion than others. Also Mo additions improve corrosion resistance for a given amount of chromium. Carbon steels are those that have primarily carbon added to them with some Mn or Si as well. Among Vancron SuperClean, Agomi #1 and Shirogami #1, Which one tends to have finer grain size and Sharper edge? This is basically a retrofit of a very old steel, adding more carbon to the recipe of 420 (hence the HC for high carbon). The unique process used to make LC 200N results in a fine-grain structure. Theres a green triangle at about RC 60.5 and toughness over 40. Maxamet is one of two current high-hardness kings, with HRc marks in the high 60s approaching 70, a hardness usually only seen in carbide steels. Jeff I worked at a company that heat treated D2 (1.55% C) planer blades for a company that built wood working equipment for commercial shops. It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. The only thing putting me off immediately buying the p135 is the 14c28n steel. I have a question about the chart 14C28N knives will handle challenging and demanding applications without chipping, cracking, or breaking. Spyderco announced Native 5 Salt with magnacut, but I saw test of magnacut with salt water and it grows corrosionso Salt with magnacut could be a flop. Very much appreciate you. Thanks! It has an HRc over 70, usually even harder than Maxamet. However, in our testing there is a reduction in toughness by using the high temperature range rather than the low temperature range, such as was found with CPM-CruWear (Z-Wear) or CPM-10V. Most of these steels are carbon steels, except for CPM MagnaCut (the fancy steel cooked up specifically for knives by Dr. Thomas), which has excellent corrosion resistance. Ive not seen these used on non-kitchen knives, though, and it seems that if they had real utility they would be used in other knives as well although perhaps on the thinner edges of kitchen knives they are more effective than they would be elsewhere? And while it can be hard depending on the heat treat, I have found it easily chips, causing microscopic dings in the edge when hardened to a high level on a thin blade. These properties make steel a good choice for making kitchen, fishing, and everyday knives. Properties: 14C28N: D2: Edge retention: 4/10: 7/10: Ease of sharpening: 6/10: 3/10: Corrosion resistance: 4/10: 4/10: Toughness: 6/10: 6/10: CIVIVI Knives Elementum Folding Pocket Knife 2.96" D2 Satin Blade . Why does Maxamet and Rex 121 stay the same tcc but Zmax drops and 15v goes from below 900 to over? It is an excellent steel that in the right hands has proven to produce high performing blades. Steels with only vanadium carbides have the best balance of properties because the hardness of carbide matters for edge retention but doesnt for toughness. While 9Cr18MoV steel is highly corrosion resistant due to the addition of Cr, and Mo. A new steel from Crucible, SPY27 launched in 2020 in the Spyderco Native 5and Para 3. And Ive done a lot of experimental work on knife steels where I feel more confident in my own ratings. In this article, we will discuss the characteristics, pros, cons, and differences between 14C28N and D2 knives to help to make the right choice. But its lightyears ahead of the alternatives, specifically titanium-bladed knives. The benefit of this, of course, is that the steel holds an edge for a very, very long time. The D2 version is heavier and harder, but doesn't cut as smoothly. 14C28N VS Steel. But it would be my recommendation for applications requiring extreme corrosion resistance. Anyway, astute comment, but edge retention does mean a lot in woodworking. n690 And only Vanax and LC200N have been free from corrosion with a 3.5% saltwater solution, though MagnaCut was close. That mixture has one goal in mind: making a great steel for people worried about rust and corrosion. 9Cr is the top end of the series and is quite good as good or better than AUS-8. The steel falls under the Sandvik series of steels and makes one of the 7 steel grades in this family including 12C27M, 14C28N, 13C26, and others. I also have a video that summarizes some of the information below while also showing how some of the experiments work. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. It would be great if you wrote a basic rundown of cryo treatment of knife steels, whats involved, the effects, interactions with other treatments like tempers, alloys that benefit the most, etc. A cryo treatment and close temperature control is necessary to achieve those hardness levels. As such, the performance of the steel is entirely dependent upon the steels being utilized. and yet millons of knives are being made out of 1.4116 (aisi 420mov?) Thanks to its very high hardness (64-66 HRc compared to the average of 58-62 HRc), ZDP-189 can be ground thinner and sharpened less often. Then we could say, e.g. You cant look at only the chromium content of the steel to know the level of corrosion resistance. Now 14c28n is IMO the best budget steel out there. Is it similar but worse or better at one of the 3 things? 14C28N steel holds good hardness. I think they are complementary and you should watch/read both. But a few overly vocal forgers were making claims about it that clearly were not true especially when comparing it to 5160. (Some crazy folks clean their Swiss Army knivesin adishwasher. In nitrogen steels, nitrogen is used as the iron-hardener instead of carbon, thus limiting the possibility of rusting. Read more. Sandvik 14C28N steel offers excellent corrosion resistance, exceptional toughness, good edge retention, and is easier to sharpen. Sharpening the knives might be challenging, but the D2 knife is high quality and affordable. Where the black-finished 1.4116 version has a simple, full flat grind, the D2 version has a compound flat grind that ends halfway up the blade's height. rex 121 LC200N is produced with a special technique to add high nitrogen, giving steel excellent corrosion resistance on the top! then you have zirconia and diamond coated blades. If you're stuck between 14C28N and 440C, here's a breakdown of the pros and cons of each type of steel. And easy to sharpen in our experience; and that will get an excellent razor edge that lasts for a reasonable price of time. It richly deserves its reputation for high-quality gained over the years by Sandvik, a Swedish manufacturer of world-renowned steel. Less expensive, conventionally produced steels include VG-10, D2, 154CM, N690, and 440C. So we get back to my original question: if a D2 planer blade at 58 Rc and the associated level of toughness will perform acceptably with a 30 sharpening angle, is there some way to extrapolate at what sharpening angle another steel with higher toughness might perform equally well? Advantages: Toughness, edge retention. There are significant differences between them because 14C28N is stainless steel, while D2 steel is a semi-stainless tool steel. It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. These steels are best for knives that dont see impacts and are some of the most difficult to sharpen. Micarta The line is only in the neighborhood of 5 of the datapoints. I guess that was before I started reading. And we list budget-friendly knives that have a professional style and grace to them. Goes to show that science not marketing or conjecture is what determines a good steel, 51shitty? You can see micrographs of different knife steels to compare their carbides in this article. as you mentioned catra indicates the edge angle as being by far the most important variable. 20? Lots of information is still specific to this article, however. The best knife for you should meet your needs and fit your budget. You can see that 64 Rc AEB-L has both lower toughness and edge retention than 61 Rc MagnaCut, so I feel that in general you get a better sense of where the steels fit with a single point. Fix-It Sticks Compact Ratcheting Multi-Tool Review, Toughness, Wear Resistance, Corrosion Resistance. Both steels are popular among knife manufacturers and both have their strengths and weaknesses. But among the steels youll find at Cabelas and the like, this is a pretty good choice. I hope you will find value in the articles on this website.
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